Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

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DennisLisi
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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby DennisLisi » April 24th, 2024, 2:24 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:I agree with Mark in the sense that the male spectator's freely-chosen number was not the number heard by the audience. Whether it was a gimmicked microphone or ventriloquism is beside the point. We know exactly how the trick worked because IT IS THE ONLY WAY the trick could have been done. In trying to make it perfect enough to fool P&T, they made it Too Perfect.
ll contestants have to work with Mike Close for ages on their routines, and he knows exactly how everything works. I can see how, in the moment, this might have fooled P&T, but given that we've figured it out in a few minutes, I believe that they, too, would have figured it out if given more time (and who knows how much was edited out). Penn could have simply asked the performer: "was the number spoken by the male spectator the same number we in the audience heard"--and the question is obvious because it's the only way the trick could have worked. I find it hard to imagine that this did not cross Penn's mind. Contrary to popular belief, he actually knows as much or more about magic than Teller at this point.


This is so much fun, Richard. What a stimulating discussion!

I hope you will allow me a few more observations, in the interest of Magic Analytics.

I have been doing some research on the frequency with which certain words MATCH EACH OTHER in various ways. For instance--I have discovered that, of the numerals from one to fifty-two, ten are MONOSYLLABIC (1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,12); eleven are BISYLLABIC (7,13,14,15,16,18,19,20,30,40); twenty-eight are TRISYLLABIC (11,17,21,22,23,24,25,26,28,29,31,32,33,34,35,36,38,39,41,42,43,44,45,46,48,49,51,52); and only three are QUADROSYLLABIC (27,37,47).

Note that 47 was the number chosen. The odds of a random volunteer uttering the correct number of syllables is therefore THREE TO FIFTY-TWO. Just about the most discouraging statistics imaginable. And yet, here we are, suggesting that the second volunteer moved his mouth in a way at least reasonably close to that of someone saying FOR-TY-SEV-EN.

The general consensus seems to be that he actually said "SEV-EN-TEEN". Even if that were true, the odds are merely twenty-two out of fifty-two. In other words, less than half a chance

Then there's the physical movement of the lips, mouth and jaw. I estimate the likelihood of approximating the enunciation of any given numeral is about 20% (even worse).

I honestly can't tell whether the man's mouth uttered "47" or "17", but the chance of a participant appearing as though he might have spoken the number we heard are so bad that no magician, regardless of skill, could reasonably hope to dub a piece of audio that adroitly--timed perfectly to play precisely as the man spoke.

Now compute the odds of a volunteer obediently refraining from looking into the camera (say, to show his face to friends and family back home, or to look to a companion in the audience, as folks often do).

And something else bothers me. Is it not TERRIBLY IRONIC that Ms. Emily made a joke out of asking the participants not to react? A joke (as hers) is meant to produce a spontaneous emotion. How then might the inventor of this trick expect compliance, in the event that a volunteer is shocked to hear someone else's voice supplanting his or her own?

I don't see any unusual response in the second volunteer's manner. Those who think they spot it are a bit ambitious I think.

Likewise, why would he (I'm thinking of Mr. Hart) invite another volunteer to witness the rubbish AT CLOSE RANGE?

Martin Hart has denied that the mic was rigged, in one of his comments under the other video (implicating The Mic Theory). But then again, he
suggests there were no stooges either. One way or the other, he is being less than honest about this.

I've probably got more to say, but I just thought you might want to consider these additional points.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Tom Stone » April 24th, 2024, 2:42 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote: I can see how, in the moment, this might have fooled P&T, but given that we've figured it out in a few minutes, I believe that they, too, would have figured it out if given more time

Just found this on Facebook. A person named Travis Nye who were in the audience during the shoot wrote: "I was there and got to see it filmed live. It was pretty incredible.", and explained that there had been a technical glitch, and she actually performed it twice live for the audience. Also posted a photo from the shoot, so it seems authentic.
P&T do not always see things from the same angle as the TV-viewers do.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 24th, 2024, 6:48 pm

I think that if she did it live TWICE, that only confirms that the spectator's verbalizing of the number was fiddled.
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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Tarotist » April 24th, 2024, 8:43 pm

I am beginning to think that both spectator's verbalizing was fiddled! Both the card and the number were ventriloquised or microphonised!
It would save all that memorised deck calculation.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby DennisLisi » April 24th, 2024, 8:53 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:I think that if she did it live TWICE, that only confirms that the spectator's verbalizing of the number was fiddled.


It wouldn't confirm that if the problem occurred before the volunteers gave their answers.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Peter Ross » April 24th, 2024, 9:51 pm

I watched this performance before I saw this thread. When the man said the number I thought, "That sounds weird." To me it sounded pre-recorded; it was a different tone and volume from the rest of his utterances. This discussion reminds me of the Van Bergen Twins' appearance, which if I'm not mistaken, also used a verbal switch as a method, and also fooled P&T. By the way, how many other performers use a hand-held mic on P&T?

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Brad Jeffers » April 24th, 2024, 10:22 pm

Peter Ross wrote: it was a different tone and volume from the rest of his utterances
He made no other utterances.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Peter Ross » April 24th, 2024, 10:40 pm

I stand corrected. I still think it sounded pre recorded and different from the other vocals of the performance. Remember, I saw this before I read the thread.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Paco Nagata » April 25th, 2024, 12:00 am

The supposed chosen number also seems weird to me.

In most of ACAAN performances, spectators tend to choose a no so high number, as twenty something or just lower than the half of the deck.

It's the first time I see a spectator choosing a number higher than 40.

Magician's participants are normally timid; they don't want to interfere too much with the development of the plot, specially when thousands of spectators must wait until 47 only because you choose that.

I've watched TV shows where the specrator chose number 8 in a Berglas Effect performance.

It seems that the number 47 was conditioned by the truely free chosen card.
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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Dave Le Fevre » April 25th, 2024, 3:37 am

Paco Nagata wrote:The supposed chosen number also seems weird to me.

In most of ACAAN performances, spectators tend to choose a no so high number, as twenty something or just lower than the half of the deck.

It's the first time I see a spectator choosing a number higher than 40.
That's an excellent point. Spectators always seem to chose a number between 10 and 40. Occasionally but rarely, slightly smaller than 10.

So either the named card was in fact freely chosen and the performer knew that it was at 47, or both the card and the number were voice dubbed and 47 was chosen in order to build up the suspense.

And I don't really care which scenario was true.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Bob Farmer » April 25th, 2024, 6:53 am

The microphone is the trick. It's way too big and unnecessary. Inside there are two recordings, one for the guy and one for the girl. The performer presses the girl voice as the girl speaks and the boy voice as the boy speaks. The performer has a small hidden microphone for her voice or the trick microphone has a third button to capture the performer's voice.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Tarotist » April 25th, 2024, 7:20 am

On another note have any of you noticed your interest in the trick has diluted now that the basic secret has been more or less exposed? You were all enthusiastic about it before the secret was clouded in mystery but now that you more or less know the secret the interest will wane. The performance will fade from memory now and be forgotten within a week or so. This is why exposure (especially internet exposure) is a very bad thing.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby AJM » April 25th, 2024, 7:56 am

It wasn’t a magic trick in my opinion.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » April 25th, 2024, 8:26 am

Bob Farmer wrote:The microphone is the trick. It's way too big and unnecessary. Inside there are two recordings, one for the guy and one for the girl. The performer presses the girl voice as the girl speaks and the boy voice as the boy speaks. The performer has a small hidden microphone for her voice or the trick microphone has a third button to capture the performer's voice.


I don't think the girl had the voice dubbed. Why? since she speaks multiple times, sometimes with lips in clear view, and we would note the difference. On the other hand, the guy "speaks" only once. The performer had a clip on mic on her since the beginning.
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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Dave Le Fevre » April 25th, 2024, 8:27 am

Tarotist wrote:On another note have any of you noticed your interest in the trick has diluted now that the basic secret has been more or less exposed?
Indeed. For many spectators, be they laymen or conjurors, some magic tricks are a puzzle to be solved.

And this effect and its performance fell in that category. Had it been hugely entertaining, then that would have redeemed it. But, unlike your TV performance, Mark, this wasn't hugely entertaining. And thus it was merely a puzzle. An intriguing puzzle which completely fooled me, but nevertheless a puzzle.

Additionally, having found that the modus operandi is merely an audio version of trick photography, I feel somewhat cheated. Impressed, 'cos it was well done. But nevertheless cheated. (I don't expect others to react likewise.)

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby DennisLisi » April 25th, 2024, 9:20 am

I mentioned a YouTube comment by Martin Hart the other day. Mysteriously, it has disappeared from the comments section below the video, but I caught a screenshot of it. You may make of this what you will--

@MartinThomasHart
Someone once suggested the choices should be written down by the spectators and shown to eliminate this type of thinking... I agree... As far as I know... no type of stooging is ever accepted... Also in real life, over any mic, you would still hear the man speak... it's not a credible method, only a perfect theory
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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Roger M. » April 25th, 2024, 9:49 am

Echoing what Bob Farmer said above, I'll note that I've been a full-time professional audio engineer for over 35 years, and the microphone she's holding is not any wireless microphone that is available as a piece of professional audio equipment as would be used on Fool Us. The microphone she's holding is a magic prop, not a piece of professional audio equipment.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby DennisLisi » April 25th, 2024, 10:02 am

Roger M. wrote:Echoing what Bob Farmer said above, I'll note that I've been a full-time professional audio engineer for over 35 years, and the microphone she's holding is not any wireless microphone that is available as a piece of professional audio equipment as would be used on Fool Us. The microphone she's holding is a magic prop, not a piece of professional audio equipment.


I think we all agree that it's a "prop". But it would be naive to discount the possibility that certain props are meant rather to mislead Penn and Teller into the very kind of suspicion that most of you have succumbed to.

We have all fancied being on Fool Us. Anyone taking it seriously would immediately recognise the most important thing--to misdirect, to draw attention away from the real method.

And another thing (not responding directly to your comment, Bob--only carrying the logic a bit further)--if as Tom Stone suggests (and Richard seems to believe) there was a glitch in the initial performance, would Penn and Teller not have witnessed it? We are not talking about a rehearsal, but an actual attempt to record the act for production, right?

If the hosts were watching, how would any of you fellows explain the fact that they still didn't catch on?

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Edward Pungot » April 25th, 2024, 11:13 am

The male volunteer gives it away.
Even after being instructed in front of the entire live audience no less, to keep a poker face, he could not help himself to crack a smile after he announced his number. There is the glitch for you, written on his face.

And a bravo to Paco as well for bringing up a very good point that never crossed my mind until he mentioned it.

I guess 52! should be summer fun for those of you who know what I’m talking about.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Roger M. » April 25th, 2024, 11:18 am

DennisLisi wrote:I think we all agree that it's a "prop". But it would be naive to discount the possibility that certain props are meant rather to mislead Penn and Teller into the very kind of suspicion that most of you have succumbed to.

The concept of using a non-standard prop microphone in an effort to mislead anybody into believing the microphone is an element of the trick (when it's not) seems a tenuous stretch at best.
Most viewers don't even understand how a wireless microphone actually works, thus using one to attempt to artfully deceive Penn and Teller into believing the microphone is part of the effect seems more a defence of a discounted theory than a practical method used in a magic effect.

I'd further note for interest sake that the microphone doesn't have to include any onboard "playback" features, the effect only has to mute the audio input such that a pre-recorded digital sample can be immediately played back through the front of house audio console, over top of the now muted (and thus silent) microphone.
Further, if the intent was to ensure that the Front of House Audio Engineer knew nothing of the method, the entire technical package could easily be attached to the microphone itself, as Bob posited above.

This technology exists right off-the-shelf, available at your local music store ... along with a bit of home crafting by the end user.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Jack Shalom » April 25th, 2024, 11:30 am

Dave wrote: "Additionally, having found that the modus operandi is merely an audio version of trick photography, "

Dave, I know it's somewhat a matter of taste, but I disagree with that characterization of the method. It's trick photography if the tv audience experiences something different from the live audience. I don't believe that to be the case here.

And Dennis...

I believe now that your argument has progressed from 1) the mic theory was a fake theory to fool Mike Close to 2) the mic theory was an obvious red herring to fool Penn and Teller.

This makes no sense. If #2, then why didn't Penn & Teller guess that if it was meant to be so obvious? Why were countless people mystified by it, including some well-posted magicians here and on YouTube if it was so obvious? Yes, it may seem obvious now, but it wasn't a few days ago!

And if it was meant to be obvious, then why tell Mike Close that this so-called false method was the method--it would mean that P&T would guess this obvious false method and then it would be confirmed as correct by Close, resulting in no trophy for the magician.

From what I can understand of your theories, the only way this all could have happened is if Close, Penn & Teller and the magician were all in cahoots for some reason for this segment. I don't buy it. I think it's possible they give some leeway to established names who they don't want to embarrass, but I see no reason for a conspiracy to boost this unknown magician.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby DennisLisi » April 25th, 2024, 11:52 am

Roger M. wrote:
DennisLisi wrote:I think we all agree that it's a "prop". But it would be naive to discount the possibility that certain props are meant rather to mislead Penn and Teller into the very kind of suspicion that most of you have succumbed to.

The concept of using a non-standard prop microphone in an effort to mislead anybody into believing the microphone is an element of the trick (when it's not) seems a tenuous stretch at best.
Most viewers don't even understand how a wireless microphone actually works, thus using one to attempt to artfully deceive Penn and Teller into believing the microphone is part of the effect seems more a defence of a discounted theory than a practical method used in a magic effect.

I'd further note for interest sake that the microphone doesn't have to include any onboard "playback" features, it only has to mute the audio input such that a pre-recorded digital sample can be immediately played back through the front of house audio console, over top of the now muted (and thus silent) microphone.
This technology exists right off-the-shelf, easily available at your local music store.


I am happy to engage you in debate, Roger. You are one of the few who openly confess to reading my comments, let alone dare to refute them.

The idea of using a misleading prop seems " tenuous at best" you say? I've done it countless times to great effect, and I am absolutely certain I'm not an innovator in that regard.

Seems "more of a defence of a discounted theory"? My theory may have been discounted in the sense of rejected by the majority of participants in this discussion, but not justifiably.

In fact, it would be virtually impossible to logically refute the possibility of a stooge in this case.

As I pointed out, quite clearly--all that would be necessary to circumvent the rules is to get away with it. And that is as easy as a third party (such as Mr. Hart) training a stooge as well as Ms. Emily.

That way, she may honestly say that she did not employ a confederate. So long as nobody asks more probing questions, the scheme may be undetected.

The only support to the notion that there must have been no stooges is faith in the letter and the spirit of the law.

If Penn and Teller can be fooled, why not the production staff?

You cannot prove that no stooges were used (and you know it). It is a matter of faith, that you evidently wish I would adopt.

May I remind you that the trick is the "too perfect" sort? Either there was a stooge, or something like what you suggest occurred. Let us both consent to that.

I have disputed the charge that my theory (which I would never be bold enough to claim as my own, as I suspect many of you--including Richard--secretly favour it)--disputed the charge that it would require a "global conspiracy". I have shown that it can be accomplished as simply as a verbal contract that leaves no trace but in the minds of the collaborators.

I didn't bother to respond to Tom Stone's statement that The Stooge Theory "isn't necessary", but I might as well, here.

Firstly, that is not a sensible argument against anything. There are a lot of unnecessary things in this world that are quite true. Secondly, in the event that your theory is disproved (which is rather a distinct possibility), then mine will indeed be required.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Roger M. » April 25th, 2024, 12:37 pm

Of course I read your post Dennis!
As to the use of a prop, I said "prop microphone", which is far more specific than your note that you have used "misleading props" ... very different statements, and with very different meanings.

I respectfully reject your argument in its entirety, simply because your "KISS" principal involves some sort of mass conspiracy, which I fail to see any support for whatsoever.
I will, however, note that we are all just offering conjecture here, and therefore unless Mike or Teller (both of whom post here) come aboard to tell us something definitive, it's probably not worth getting into any sort of aggravated exchange over, not that you or I are in an aggravated exchange ... I don't think we are?

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Tom Moore » April 25th, 2024, 12:41 pm

In fact, it would be virtually impossible to logically refute the possibility of a stooge in this case.

As I pointed out, quite clearly--all that would be necessary to circumvent the rules is to get away with it. And that is as easy as a third party (such as Mr. Hart) training a stooge as well as Ms. Emily.


Just so this is completely clear - performers don't just get to rock up to the studio one day and tape whatever they want. To get to taping they will have had to disclose the method to the magic team (and have it approved), spent a couple of days in rehearsals WITH the magic team tweaking the routine to make it the best TV showcase possible. So for them to be using a stooge as you keep implying they would first have to have come up with a complete "non stooge" method that worked and got through all the preliminary stages, took the same amount of time and overall was the same "performance" as what was done in the taping. Then for the actual taping (and with all the extra work involved in getting the stooge into the taping and selected without anyone on the production team suspecting anything) they would completely abandon the non-stooge method which by definition, would have produced the exact same effect to now use the stooge method purely for the taped performance in front of P&T, then in the post taping discussions keep up the ruse that the non-stooge-but-looks-just-the-same method was the one they had used.

Why do you think that is what they did?

(Penn has now gone on record confirming that it wasn't a stooge and how interesting it is in the real world that magicians won't just say "You Fooled Me" when they can't work out how a trick is done)
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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby DennisLisi » April 25th, 2024, 12:57 pm

Tom Moore wrote:
In fact, it would be virtually impossible to logically refute the possibility of a stooge in this case.

As I pointed out, quite clearly--all that would be necessary to circumvent the rules is to get away with it. And that is as easy as a third party (such as Mr. Hart) training a stooge as well as Ms. Emily.


Just so this is completely clear - performers don't just get to rock up to the studio one day and tape whatever they want. To get to taping they will have had to disclose the method to the magic team (and have it approved), spent a couple of days in rehearsals WITH the magic team tweaking the routine to make it the best TV showcase possible. So for them to be using a stooge as you keep implying they would first have to have come up with a complete "non stooge" method that worked and got through all the preliminary stages, took the same amount of time and overall was the same "performance" as what was done in the taping. Then for the actual taping (and with all the extra work involved in getting the stooge into the taping and selected without anyone on the production team suspecting anything) they would completely abandon the non-stooge method which by definition, would have produced the exact same effect to now use the stooge method purely for the taped performance in front of P&T, then in the post taping discussions keep up the ruse that the non-stooge-but-looks-just-the-same method was the one they had used.

Why do you think that is what they did?

(Penn has now gone on record confirming that it wasn't a stooge and how interesting it is in the real world that magicians won't just say "You Fooled Me" when they can't work out how a trick is done)


Forgive me if I don't address each line of your lengthy comment. I would if I had the time, believe me. And will of course, if Richard doesn't ban me first

I think what you are basically asking me is, What sort of trick might lend itself to a dual method, using the one as the "red herring" and the other as the actual means.

Now a sceptic like me ought not to be required to answer that satisfactorily, any more than a defence lawyer needs to prove WHO (OTHER THAN HIS CLIENT) DID IT OR HOW.

But I accept the challenge.

The ACAAN is most closely associated with David Berglas. As I understand it, Martin Hart was well acquainted with Berglas. I know that, you know that--Penn and Teller know that, and so does Michael Close.

I imagine all the inventor of this trick had to do was employ one of Berglas' hands-free methods, whilst pretending to use a gimmicked microphone.

Lest I be pommelled for it, I would be loathe to suggest that Berglas employed a stooge on occasion, but in the interest of a complete and thorough investigation, I don't think any of us ought to rule that out.

Oh--and of course you want to know why?

Well Mr. Hart certainly had a motive (to show that his protegée was well trained; that he was a brilliant devisor of tricksy that even other magicians couldn't figure out, etc.)

In a word, Repute.

But that's not all. As I said, The Stooge Method is easier to conceal, and less risky to perform. No need for technology (which can be discovered) and no possibility of anyone observing anything untoward.
Last edited by DennisLisi on April 25th, 2024, 1:04 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Tarotist » April 25th, 2024, 1:02 pm

I STILL think the method is described on page 57 of Al Baker's mentalism book! Unlike everyone else here I have actually used the method. I concede that I did it very badly although I bet me doing it badly was more entertaining than Emily doing it perfectly!

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Tom Moore » April 25th, 2024, 1:05 pm

No Dennis, i'm asking why you think they used two totally different methods (the non-stooge version in all the pre-show discussions and rehearsals, the stooge version exclusively for the taping) which is what they would have had to do to use "a stooge" on this show
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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby DennisLisi » April 25th, 2024, 1:05 pm

DennisLisi wrote:
Tom Moore wrote:
In fact, it would be virtually impossible to logically refute the possibility of a stooge in this case.

As I pointed out, quite clearly--all that would be necessary to circumvent the rules is to get away with it. And that is as easy as a third party (such as Mr. Hart) training a stooge as well as Ms. Emily.


Just so this is completely clear - performers don't just get to rock up to the studio one day and tape whatever they want. To get to taping they will have had to disclose the method to the magic team (and have it approved), spent a couple of days in rehearsals WITH the magic team tweaking the routine to make it the best TV showcase possible. So for them to be using a stooge as you keep implying they would first have to have come up with a complete "non stooge" method that worked and got through all the preliminary stages, took the same amount of time and overall was the same "performance" as what was done in the taping. Then for the actual taping (and with all the extra work involved in getting the stooge into the taping and selected without anyone on the production team suspecting anything) they would completely abandon the non-stooge method which by definition, would have produced the exact same effect to now use the stooge method purely for the taped performance in front of P&T, then in the post taping discussions keep up the ruse that the non-stooge-but-looks-just-the-same method was the one they had used.

Why do you think that is what they did?

(Penn has now gone on record confirming that it wasn't a stooge and how interesting it is in the real world that magicians won't just say "You Fooled Me" when they can't work out how a trick is done)


Forgive me if I don't address each line of your lengthy comment. I would if I had the time, believe me. And will of course, if Richard doesn't ban me first

I think what you are basically asking me is, What sort of trick might lend itself to a dual method, using the one as the "red herring" and the other as the actual means.

Now a sceptic like me ought not to be required to answer that satisfactorily, any more than a defence lawyer needs to prove WHO (OTHER THAN HIS CLIENT) DID IT OR HOW.

But I accept the challenge.

The ACAAN is most closely associated with David Berglas. As I understand it, Martin Hart was well acquainted with Berglas. I know that, you know that--Penn and Teller know that, and so does Michael Close.

I imagine all the inventor of this trick had to do was employ one of Berglas' hands-free methods, whilst pretending to use a gimmicked microphone.

Lest I be pommelled for it, I would be loathe to suggest that Berglas employed a stooge on occasion, but in the interest of a complete and thorough investigation, I don't think any of us ought to rule that out.

Oh--and of course you want to know why?

Well Mr. Hart certainly had a motive (to show that his protegée was well trained; that he was a brilliant devisor of tricks that even other magicians couldn't figure out, etc.)

In a word, Repute.

But that's not all. As I said, The Stooge Method is easier to conceal, and less risky to perform. No need for technology (which can be discovered) and no possibility of anyone observing anything untoward.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Tarotist » April 25th, 2024, 1:10 pm

DennisLisi wrote:
Tom Moore wrote:
In fact, it would be virtually impossible to logically refute the possibility of a stooge in this case.

As I pointed out, quite clearly--all that would be necessary to circumvent the rules is to get away with it. And that is as easy as a third party (such as Mr. Hart) training a stooge as well as Ms. Emily.

.

Lest I be pommelled for it, I would be loathe to suggest that Berglas employed a stooge on occasion, but in the interest of a complete and thorough investigation, I don't think any of us ought to rule that out.


Oh David Berglas used stooges all right according to Al Koran! I once had dinner with Koran and Billy McComb and Koran was complaining all the time about David using stooges. I tried to change the subject by asking him what he thought of Chan Canasta and he responded, "At least he doesn't use stooges like David Berglas!"

Of course David did some very good pickpocketing and stooges are rife in pickpocketing acts whether instant or prepared.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Dave Le Fevre » April 25th, 2024, 2:32 pm

Jack Shalom wrote:Dave wrote: "Additionally, having found that the modus operandi is merely an audio version of trick photography, "

Dave, I know it's somewhat a matter of taste, but I disagree with that characterization of the method. It's trick photography if the tv audience experiences something different from the live audience. I don't believe that to be the case here.
I don't disagree with your opinion, Jack.

And I take your point - my comparison with trick photography is not entirely accurate.

As I said, "(I don't expect others to react likewise.)"

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby DennisLisi » April 25th, 2024, 3:19 pm

Tom Moore wrote:No Dennis, i'm asking why you think they used two totally different methods (the non-stooge version in all the pre-show discussions and rehearsals, the stooge version exclusively for the taping) which is what they would have had to do to use "a stooge" on this show


I believe I've answered that, but perhaps you will sit still for a more detailed explanation.

First--I have no certain knowledge of precisely how the trick was done, nor who orchestrated it.

What I suspect is that Martin Hart wanted to have one his students do ACAAN, but he knew that everyone involved with Fool Us would see through the well-known methods.

In order to really deceive both the producers and the hosts, he had to resort to a stooge. Perhaps having learnt that strategy from Berglas himself

As The Berglas hands-free method is virtually undetectable, it could work. But he needed a false premise to cover it up.

Are you so befuddled that you cannot conceive of going backstage and showing Mike Close the trick and merely citing one of the variations of The Berglas Effect?

If The Mic Method were the false premise, all Ms. Emily would have to do is show them the very apparatus that you suspect. Satisfied, Close would accept the act. And when it came time to perform for the show, the stooge would utter the number (using his knowledge of the stack) and nobody would be the wiser.

Was it you, or someone else who cynically implied that it would be difficult to get a stooge into the audience?

I don't know the way it was done, but here's how I would do it (if I were Mr. Hart)--

I would get one of my business associates to induce someone who had a ticket for that show to sell it.

Now the only way that wouldn't work is if the tickets are NON-TRANSFERRABLE. I rather doubt that, but if you have information to the contrary, that would be a pertinent contribution to this discussion.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Tom Moore » April 25th, 2024, 3:36 pm

Let us assume for a moment that (for the actual in front of p&t taped performance) they did do it using a stooge. …

How did they manage to explain the method (in detail) to Mike close to get cleared to even be considered for taping? If they had said “it’s a stooge” they wouldn’t be shortlisted. Whatever method they explained would have to be explained in detail to MC so that he fully understood it.

How did they get through the several days of rehearsals (studio rehearsals and backstage rehearsal , all of which involve members of the production crew standing in for audience spectators) along with the act polishing from the show staff that takes place? They have to have a method that still works through all these days of scrutiny that doesn’t use a stooge - if the trick wasn’t working in rehearsals they wouldn’t have been allowed to go to taping.

The performance they then presented for the taping must have been basically the same as what was in the training and Rehersals otherwise they would be disqualified.
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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby DennisLisi » April 25th, 2024, 3:46 pm

Tom Moore wrote:Let us assume for a moment that (for the actual in front of p&t taped performance) they did do it using a stooge. …

How did they manage to explain the method (in detail) to Mike close to get cleared to even be considered for taping? If they had said “it’s a stooge” they wouldn’t be shortlisted. Whatever method they explained would have to be explained in detail to MC so that he fully understood it.

How did they get through the several days of rehearsals (studio rehearsals and backstage rehearsal , all of which involve members of the production crew standing in for audience spectators) along with the act polishing from the show staff that takes place? They have to have a method that still works through all these days of scrutiny that doesn’t use a stooge - if the trick wasn’t working in rehearsals they wouldn’t have been allowed to go to taping.

The performance they then presented for the taping must have been basically the same as what was in the training and Rehersals otherwise they would be disqualified.


The only difference between the audition/rehearsal and the stage performance would be that the former used an actual mic, of the sort you believe in, and the latter would use the stooge (the second volunteer) to use the mem deck to determine the right position, and utter it.

Who would know the difference?

The crew would simply hear the number "forty-seven" and assume that it were dubbed.

BUT the advantage here is that the other volunteer would not notice anything wrong--and Ms. Emily wouldn't need to be so remarkably skilled as to synchronise the audio.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Tom Moore » April 25th, 2024, 3:58 pm

The backstage rehearsals, that take place in the corner of a conference room in the Rio; where a bored assistant producer or crewman from the show stands in as “spectator” - how did the trick work when it was performed there successfully many times (and by definition not a stooge because it’s one of the show staff) because if it didn’t work in those rehearsals it wouldn’t have gone upstairs to a camera taping.
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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby DennisLisi » April 25th, 2024, 4:08 pm

Tom Moore wrote:The backstage rehearsals, that take place in the corner of a conference room in the Rio; where a bored assistant producer or crewman from the show stands in as “spectator” - how did the trick work when it was performed there successfully many times (and by definition not a stooge because it’s one of the show staff) because if it didn’t work in those rehearsals it wouldn’t have gone upstairs to a camera taping.


Your reasoning seems tautological. If you believe that The Mic Theory is viable, then it could have been used all during the auditions and rehearsals.

As I said--the only difference is that the second volunteer is ALLOWED to utter the actual number, rather than be muted. How would you propose that the producers discover the switch?

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 25th, 2024, 4:19 pm

Dennis, please, this is becoming tiresome.
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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Tom Moore » April 25th, 2024, 4:21 pm

I haven’t made any statements about a microphone or what my theory of the method is so do please stop arguing with a position I have never taken.

You have made multiple statements that you think it uses a stooge and that there’s no real way to prove a stooge wasn’t used.

I’m asking you; if their method was “a stooge” then how did they achieve the exact same effect in all the rehearsals where a stooge was impossible? If what they did in rehearsals (with show staff as a spectator) didn’t work they wouldn’t have gone to taping so by definition there must be a way to perform this exact effect, multiple times that doesn’t use a stooge.
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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby DennisLisi » April 25th, 2024, 5:35 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Dennis, please, this is becoming tiresome.


I quite agree, Richard. My adversaries are merely trying to get me to repeat myself in hope that I err. Note that Mr. Moore pounces on my assumption that he espouses The Mic Theory. An irrelevant point, as I only meant it as an example.

Regardless of what method was shown to the staff of Fool Us, there would be no observable difference.

A simple concept, and I promise not to reiterate it.

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Tarotist » April 25th, 2024, 5:46 pm

It's not a prepared stooge. It is not an instant stooge. It is a really a case of stooges not realising they are stooges until it is too late to do anything about it!

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Re: Astonishing ACAAN on Fool Us

Postby Edward Pungot » April 25th, 2024, 7:00 pm

Watching the performance for a second time I am surprised at my own statements of recall. The details I thought I remember clearly seeing was not as I remember. The lady volunteer’s lips were completely obscured from her hair. And the gentleman only smiled in response to a statement made by the performer about selecting a large number. Also the introductory montage is very clear about her taking and inquiring an online casting call for a tv magic related gig.

Tom Stone is correct in stating that we have the camera view advantage that P&T did not. And of course a repeat viewing. Jack also reminds us of the “of course it’s obvious now” that often occurs after the facts.

But I’m willing to concede being fooled as well.
And would be more than happy to hear Mr. Moore’s theory and even accept Dennis’s possibility of a well devised black ops stooge operation.

These all add to the layers of deception needed to make a trick impenetrable. I initially thought that there wasn’t enough layers, but now, maybe I’m not so sure. It seems like the mind is good enough when left to it’s own devises for creating it’s own layers of London fog.


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